"And I see you have quite a background as an entrepreneur. What got you to where you are in your career today and ultimately into gamification?"

"In my 25-year career, I held several corporate management positions until I was 42, which was ten years ago. I started off as a product manager in a leading telecommunications company across the Nordics and Asia. However, I always wanted to own a company. I joined the freedom to learn and progress further, taking the leap of faith to start my first company, Schooler, an edtech company with my colleague. We ran that company with customers in over 100 countries worldwide. In my adult life, I've always been inspired by how engaged school children are in learning when the teacher takes them outside for some outdoor learning. This inspired me to launch Witarrio in June 2019."

"Not bad for your first startup reaching 100 countries already. That's impressive."

"Yeah, thank you very much."

"It's good that you have a niche and a focus on education. I think that really defines a lot of successful entrepreneurs—someone who truly believes in their mission, especially if they are passionate about a specific area. It seems like you've followed an education and e-learning path with your current company as well."

"So, for the uninformed companies out there, what is gamification, and why should businesses care?"

"I prefer the term game-based learning over gamification. It is an educational approach that uses games to enhance the learning experience. It leverages principles of game design, such as competition, collaboration, problem-solving, and engagement, to make the learning process more interactive and enjoyable. Game-based learning is actually a quite large global market, worth around 20 billion dollars. It's used in various educational settings, from schools and universities to corporate training and development. Should I explain why companies should adopt this approach?"

"Yes, please. It's been around for a while but seems to be gaining more popularity recently. Why do you think that is?"

"I can give you six good reasons why companies should implement game-based learning. Firstly, it motivates employees to succeed. Secondly, users receive immediate feedback on their learning, which encourages them to repeat the training. Repetition leads to increased learning gains. Thirdly, it offers the freedom to fail—it's not a big deal if you answer a question wrong on a game-based learning quiz. Fourthly, it allows employees to take the training at their own pace. Fifth, it engages employees—no one wants to be at the bottom of the list; everyone wants to be at the top. Lastly, these six elements contribute to the success of game-based learning in the corporate sector."

"That's a great point. Plus, it taps into inherent human traits like the need to compete and be noticed. This generation, including Millennials and younger, was raised on games, so they easily respond to these mechanics."

"I agree. Game-based learning, or using games, also increases one's ability to solve problems. A lot of research supports this."

"That's a great point. So, what are some ways that companies can implement game-based learning into their products or services?"

"Our corporate customers use game-based learning for onboarding new employees, training existing staff, and developing various projects. It's also used for team-building activities to enhance both physical and digital gatherings, making them more enjoyable. Additionally, customers use Witarrio before, during, and after workshops." (09:09) "For strategy work, polls, services, and team building..."

"Oh, go ahead, sorry."

"No, no, sure."

"Alright, do you have any other insights into what the next trends might be for game-based learning and where that industry is heading?"

"Yeah, we're starting to see more use of extended reality integration, so using both augmented reality and virtual reality in gamification. I also believe that we'll see more blockchain gamification, using blockchain technology for in-game asset rewards and transactions. Additionally, I see more personalized gamification and health and wellness gamification. We sit too much, so using games to encourage staff to move more is good for our health and well-being."

(10:01) "Yeah, that's a great point. I expect to see blockchain utilized more in gaming as well, because a lot of blockchain technology hasn't been effectively utilized yet. It works really well in closed environments, especially if you have an in-app game currency. There's no real value unless you can ensure that value in those closed networks, like a gaming platform, which allows you to accomplish that."

"I agree. It's a very good technology for enabling gaming in closed environments."

"Perfect. Being an entrepreneur yourself, why do you think most startups fail? It seems like your companies have done well, but I'm sure you've met a lot of entrepreneurs who haven't had the same success."

"Yeah, there are a lot of factors that contribute to the failure rate of startups. The most important, as I see it, is the lack of market demand and poor product-market fit. Additionally, inadequate funding is a significant issue, especially in the current economic downturn, where many companies fail to secure funding to close their rounds. Team issues and ineffective leadership are also critical factors. My advice is to focus on getting the product out, pivoting towards customers, and getting customers to pay at an early stage in the product development phase. This way, you can tailor the product according to customer needs rather than building something you think they might want to pay for."

(11:21) "Yeah, that happens more often than you'd think. Many people put too much of their ego into the product they're building, bring it out to the customer, and then ask, 'Who wants to buy this now?' But what you're recommending, and I definitely agree with, is getting that real product-market fit and building features that your customers actually want. It's about doing everything you can in your product design to solve the customer's problem in the best way possible at a reasonable price. I've seen many companies fail because they don't have a product-market fit early on, yet they try to raise money without a scalable product."

"That's not the way to do it, I agree."

"Yep. So, I guess failure comes with any profession. Can you tell us about a time you failed and what you learned from it?"

(12:06) "One thing that comes to mind is when we launched Schooler, my first edtech company, in Great Britain back in 2014. The product wasn't tailored enough to the local market demands. We hired sales staff too early and ended up burning too much cash on that launch. I learned a lot from that mistake."

"Yeah, anyone who doesn't have any mistakes probably hasn't tried anything. I agree."

"Yeah, that's why I always like asking that question. A lot of times, we learn the most about ourselves and have the greatest stories and learnings from those experiences. That's one big advantage of being an older entrepreneur like myself. I'm 52 years old, and in a 25-year career, you'll make a lot of mistakes. But if you learn from them, you will succeed."

(13:32) "You've definitely earned your stripes. So, what's one thing potential customers should know about Witarrio and why they should use your platform?"

"Could I say two things? First, research shows that movement engages your brain and makes you about 60% more creative than if you sit still. Our app stimulates movement, which increases brain activity. Second, research also indicates that people learn more by playing a learning game compared to reading a text. If you read a text, on average, people remember 10% of the message. But if you play a learning game, you remember up to 90%."

(14:48) "There's a Confucius quote that says, 'If I hear, I forget. If I see, I remember. But if I do, I understand.' Game-based learning is the 'doing' that really helps people completely understand what they're learning."

"I agree completely. And if you can also teach others what you've learned, you learn even more."

(15:22) "This concept has been around for centuries. That's the whole idea behind mentorship; the best leaders are the ones who coach because, as you're coaching people, you're learning yourself too."

"Exactly."

"So, what's next for Witarrio, and where do you see the company in five years?"

(16:19) "At the moment, we have customers in 12 countries and app users in 52 countries across six continents. Our next step is to convert free trial users to paying customers and launch commercially in the UK, US, Germany, and Spain. Together with local partners, we'll adapt the learning content to each local market. Hopefully, in five years, we'll be the world-leading game-based learning platform, focusing on learning while on the move."

"That's great! We're glad to be a local partner for you guys ourselves."

"Yeah, I'm very happy to be on the NCH NRO platform, the world's best marketplace for SaaS service companies." (19:19) "Only because we have the best. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. Is there anything else you'd like to share with the audience about your product, vision, or anything else before we go?"

"No, I think I just want to thank all the listeners for tuning in and wish everyone happy holidays."

"Likewise, I appreciate you coming in today. For anyone interested in Witarrio, you can check it out today in the NachoNacho B2B SaaS Marketplace, or you can go directly to their website."

(19:59) "Is that witarrio.com?"

"Yes, perfect."

"I definitely highly recommend it. I'm very excited about the interview today because I believe in game-based learning and where it's going. It taps into inherent human experiences, and I think having more specialized products in this space will do really well in the market. So, definitely check it out today, everyone, in the NachoNacho B2B SaaS Marketplace. Once again, Lars, thanks so much for coming on today, and have happy holidays."

"Thank you very much, Andy."