[00:11] Andy Karuza: Good morning everybody and welcome to another Nacho Tuesday. Today I have Jordi again and Jake Crowley with Crowley Capital. And without further ado, we'd love if you guys could introduce yourselves and your companies. Jordi, go ahead.

[00:25] Jordi Pujol: Yeah, definitely. So my name is Jordi Pujol. I am an expert in valuation and obsessed with everything value and pricing. I work for a boutique investment bank called Objective, where we sell companies on one side and then we value companies on the other.

[00:46] Jake Crowley: I'm Jake Crowley, managing partner here at Crowley Capital. It's a direct-to-cap fund, Series A and plus. This is in deep tech, fintech, health tech, and proptech. On top of that would be special projects that occur along the scale. Again, into secondary markets, also within various major projects across the world in different regions, and advisement for family offices and their deployments as well.

[01:18] Andy Karuza: Nice. And you're based in Austin, Texas, correct?

[01:21] Jake Crowley: Out of Austin, Texas, yes.

[01:23] Andy Karuza: Nice. How's the venture capital scene down there blooming?

[01:26] Jake Crowley: It's, you know, by all metrics, interesting. In all capital formations, but VC is the one that's really seeing the hockey stick.

[01:34] Andy Karuza: That's great to hear. I used to live in Austin, so it's good to see it's come a long way. So I guess Jordi, what separates a company that's simply profitable from one that's actually truly ready for an acquisition?

[01:44] Jordi Pujol: Yeah, so this is something that we encounter often, right? People that want to sell their company, but they're everything for the company, right? They're running the company, they're fixing problems, they're the go-to person about everything. They have all the contacts and people are sometimes even just buying from them, right? They're not really buying from your company; they're buying from this person who's like the company embodied in a single person. And so what we tell folks is you got to start now building a company that does not rely on you, right? Companies should rely on systems, should rely on process, should rely on organized people. And while you can still be a leader, you can be a visionary, you can be part of the growth of that company, you need to slowly step out until people can do the job without you, right? So they have the fun test, which is: can you go on vacation for a month and does your company keep running? That's a good thing, right? You're moving into a company that's a little bit more sellable.

[02:47] Andy Karuza: Yep. Yeah, it could be an Elon Musk and still have the company kind of run itself and all the processes in place, right?

[02:51] Jordi Pujol: Exactly. Like, Elon Musk can run seven companies because he's not the biggest part of each of them.

[02:59] Andy Karuza: Yep. Yeah, that's a great point. Uh, Jake, so if a founder wants to maximize his value over the next 24 months to get ready for acquisition, where should they invest their time first?

[03:10] Jake Crowley: Well, it's interesting. I think we've got a good likeness in our mantra, Jordi, and I think just from your first answer, we're probably going to be in lockstep here. It is going to be about the disaggregation of reliance on one individual within the company. And that's going to always drive valuation. So I actually think founders kind of ask themselves the wrong question. So instead of asking, "How do I increase valuation?", you actually want to reduce risk as much as possible. Valuation is largely the market's way of pricing that confidence. So if I had 24 months, I'd divide that into three phases. It's going to be very similar to what Jordi was kind of bringing up. So the first eight months, that's going to be about leadership. So every major function should operate without the founder making every decision. And then the next eight months are going to be about systems. You brought up Elon, what a great example of someone who understands systems, understands going down to the foundational level and really creating at that foundational level and then being able to optimize. So the next eight months, you know, financial reporting dashboards, customer success, sales documentation, everything like that. And then you're going to diversify. So final eight months, you know, diversify your customers, your revenue streams, that leadership—but not the leadership that is always in place, it's the leadership capabilities. It's exactly what we were just saying, if he has to go and leave for a full month, are we still reliant on some of that decision-making or is everybody else able to carry that on? So one thing I always just encourage: do what is incredibly simple. So imagine your largest customer leaves tomorrow; does the company survive? Imagine the head of sales resigns; does growth still continue? Or imagine again, you personally disappear for 30 days; does that organization keep moving? So every answer that makes everybody in the company feel a little uncomfortable, those are always ways to build on the enterprise value there.

[05:22] Andy Karuza: Yeah, that's a great point that you made.

[05:25] Jordi Pujol: And I like that you said that about reducing risk because, right, the equation that people always think about is future cash flows, and they all want to grow future cash flows. But they're forgetting that there's a discount rate associated with it, right? So if you're discounting those cash flows and you can minimize that discount rate, your value naturally grows.

[05:46] Andy Karuza: I guess what are some other big value drivers? I guess this question could be for both of you. What are some other big value drivers buyers look for and founders and the company themselves when determining a valuation, whether it's ready for acquisition?

[06:01] Jordi Pujol: I mean honestly, all the ones that Jake was talking about that de-risk your company, right? For example, like diversifying your suppliers, that's a really big deal. Um, I mean you'll hear this a lot, but people really care about the predictability of your revenue. It's not the same to have a company that's a retail company that sells one-offs and is consistently doing one-off projects than, for example, one that does projects for the government, has a guaranteed five-year contract, and on top of that has guaranteed minimum payments, right? Those are two very separate companies. And one could be doing a little bit more money even, but the predictability of those government contracts and knowing what's going to happen in the next five years, that's a big, big, big value creation driver. So if you can basically contract a little bit more, guarantee a little bit more, have more partnerships, have channels that are more predictable, your revenue will always be more valuable than revenue that is not predictable, even if it's a lot more, right? So that's something that people forget: that even if it's more, you want the predictability rather than the volume.

[07:07] Jake Crowley: Yeah, I was just going to add in, if you're looking at it as a VC versus a strategic acquirer, those are two kind of different things. One's evaluating how large the company can become, and then the other one is evaluating, "What makes my business stronger on Monday morning?" So if you're looking at it from the VC side, you might invest because the adaptation is going to transform the industry over a decade. Whereas a Fortune 500 software company, they're going to acquire this specific founder or this specific entrepreneur because that same business immediately expands their product offering or shortens their product roadmap. So you're looking at it in two different buckets. If you're looking at it from corporate development and an executive saying something that "we're not buying software, we're buying time back," and that specific ways that we're looking at from this evaluation, so it's completely changed how I thought about acquisitions because the greatest value isn't what the company built, it's the years of development the buyer no longer has to spend from that enterprise side. So there's two different mindsets that kind of play out there.

[08:32] Andy Karuza: Is there a difference in—are there different types of acquisitions? Can you maybe go over some of those? Obviously, there's acqui-hires, there's, you know, other reasons people buy companies. It could be for IP, it could be to expand their product lines. Would you guys like to cover some of those areas and reasons why companies actually acquire companies and how maybe a founder could position themselves for one of those exit opportunities? Jake, I'll let you take this one first.

[08:58] Jake Crowley: Yeah, so there are very many different ones. That's a good reason why I wanted to bring up those two very specific ways. So it kind of falls lock-and-step of what we're talking about here, where a founder should be thinking about, "How do I proliferate all of my availability and my financial acumen so that when it does go across those stages or is available for these different types, then every single one of them is going to glean it from the institutional perspective?" So we really want to clean everything up. It's interesting when somebody speaks about, "Well, I took the last six months and we really were able to come to the market now as a salable product." Well, from an institutional perspective, we're always looking at that six months... we're really hoping that you've done it over the last three years or five years. So that's what makes it just really nice and tidy, that we are confident in that evolution of your perspective of going to market, and that's why those sales products or that sale acquisition is so different. You know, there are enterprises that are just purchasing as an unfolding within a product series, or there's a strategic acquisition that is happening from a larger side—maybe it's a private equity group that can change up their EBITDA metric because they see this coming into the portfolio. Or there is just a direct investment that you're seeing this for the long term as an evaluation perspective because, you know, this is going to solidify and break ground on the industry and able to prop up the industry because of what this new company is able to bring to the table. So there's many different ways, but it always goes back to the individual displaying confidence for that purchaser at that time.

[10:44] Andy Karuza: Yep. Jordi, anything to add to that?

[10:48] Jordi Pujol: Yeah, I mean for the sellers out there, right, when you're having these conversations, you're going to see different types of buyers. So you have your financial buyers, right? Your typical private equity, venture capital. Depending on the stage of your company, how much capital it needs to grow versus to improve operations. Someone like a private equity might be a private equity that's really focused on growth, or it might be a private equity that's really focused on operations and improving margin because they already feel like you've been able to achieve a certain usable growth, and in a market that all they have to do is improve your operations. There's the early-stage buyers, right? They can be majority early-stage buyers where they take over again and grow it, which is a little bit more rare. Or they can be minority venture capital, where they come in, they give you an investment, you run the company, but they're trusting you, they're trusting your team, and they're letting you grow. And then now we're seeing kind of different combinations of that, right? So some of the strategic acquirers have venture funds that kind of mimic venture capital right through a corporate structure. Some of them imitate more of the private equity kind of side, where they're building portfolios of different companies or different services, different technology. And you have the ones that are just incorporating, you know, a really good engineer or a really good team or a really good product into their existing offerings, right? So they might include it as a new feature into their traditional offering. So you're getting a large span of different buyers. So as a seller, you just have to make sure: okay, where's my value maximized? And you know, there's the fun story of like, if you're selling a water bottle at a 7-Eleven, it's worth a dollar. If you're selling at the airport, it might be worth $3 to $5. If you're selling in the desert and someone's thirsty, right, it's going to be worth a heck of a lot more. Maybe like an infinite amount in a way, right, if that person's dying. So, kind of that way with companies, right? If you position yourself to the right buyer, your value is very contextual. It's very dependent on what that person is willing to pay you. Not necessarily what that true intrinsic value is on a general basis, right? It's what that intrinsic value is in this lane, this lane, or this other lane.

[13:03] Andy Karuza: Yeah, that's a great analogy there. How do you guys think AI changes the landscape, especially for software companies? Is software valued as much as it used to be in terms of acquisition?

[13:17] Jake Crowley: Drastically, is the answer. You know, one thing about it being as part of the valuation side within software, it has really become cannibalistic in nature. But also, when you're evaluating the entirety of the stack, it is individuals who create moats based off of one data... I'm sure that this is very echoing of many different customer segments, but it is data accumulation and then how stickiness that that's going to be within the widespread of who you've really cornered. So that's how AI has really kind of transformed a majority of what software had usually taken care of. There's been a reliance on a particular package within software, and now that you are able to rely more on your core engineers and core groups and/or partnerships that you have within the company to utilize your tool set within AI, that's where some of that software has kind of fell off and the AI adaptation has increased from there. So it does make it so you have to rely more on the individuals that are using it and then the partnerships that you do have with the buying sector, along with the data accumulation. So that when you make that data more localized and you have those SLMs that are accumulated around specific tasks that are in the process or operational process, that's what's making it more sticky and that's what's creating your moat. And then you feed that into your LLM and now as a company, you are holistically being able to better adapt around what the new markets are adapting to and how well is that market continuing to increase and how well are we playing a role in utilizing everything, our strengths of the SLM modality. So that's changed for myself.

[15:10] Andy Karuza: Yep, I feel like brand and community are more important than ever too, right? Can you get people to attract them to your product and then stick around, continue to engage with your brand, and build a community around it essentially?

[15:23] Jordi Pujol: Yeah, I mean, that's what AI has done, right? It's intensified the value of the pieces that truly were always more important. So the software, right, it's just the tool, but design, for example, is really, really important. And there's little things that you start seeing, like Apple recently made a change where if you take a screenshot, now you have to take the screenshot, then you have to select from a menu and save the photo. And it's like two, three clicks, and even just that friction makes it so much worse as a design in that particular feature that you're kind of pissed about it. You just hope that you could click, it saves, you're done, and then you move on with your life. That's the same way in all software, right? Like if people can design for the user and can continue to create a magical experience, it'll be really, really hard to replicate. Because now, instead of one thing that I'm doing through the AI or lovable or whatever else people are doing, I have to create a bunch of other things, make it really pretty, be very intentional. So then again, I'm architecting, right? So by the time you're coding everything, it's almost as long as coding it from scratch because there are so many little pieces that make it so seamless as a product on the other end. It's all like what you mentioned, right? It's about the users, it's about the community, it's about the repeatability. And so do people adopt your software, integrate it, and then does it have all those other things that make it easy to integrate into a company? Make it easy for users to bring it into maybe their own connectors? Does it have the right APIs, right? Like all the backend is starting to become so much more important because these kind of really simple frontend apps now anybody can create, right? And so again, you're kind of going back to the basics of business, which is: do you have the distribution channels to sell it? Do people want it? And do they want to stick within those channels? Do you have the design to make it super easy to use and a great product? And if you put all those things together, okay, now you have a great product again, right? Which again, I think it was what was happening always. It's just that there was this technical aspect that created a difficulty for folks. But at some point, you had so many engineers that that didn't really become a challenge for people anymore, right? You could just hire engineers here. At some point, you could just hire them in the Ukraine. But now it's in AI, it's kind of the same thing. You're still having to build the products, make it really great and very usable, and that's what always created value anyways.

[17:54] Andy Karuza: Yep, yeah, that's a great point. And I feel like you could easily identify products that are just AI slop. There are a lot of consistent markers, I guess, when I look at websites or new products coming out, I'm like, these guys literally just fed in a prompt, and you can tell it just spit out like the, you know, there's certain patterns to the way AI thinks things should be done, and that'll come out in the products very easily. As opposed to the ones where they use AI as like a superpower to kind of lift the project up and move things forward, but they're very detailed in terms of how they manage AI, like very specific in terms of the prompts, like very detailed to come up with a unique product out of that, as opposed to just going the easy route and just launching something just for the heck of it.

[18:38] Jordi Pujol: Yeah, I mean, being a product manager was like the most coveted job in Silicon Valley for a really long time, right? I think these guys were hiring really smart, really creative people because they really had to think about all the other aspects that maybe an engineer doesn't have the time to or isn't the right person to do the job, right? You kind of always need the architect, you need the engineer, and then you need the construction people. So I feel like it's a little bit of that.

[19:05] Andy Karuza: Yep, yeah, I guess how should founders start positioning their company from an early stage for exit? We talked about a couple of ideas earlier, but without getting distracted obviously from the here and now, to actually build sustainable revenue growth. But what are the key things from day one they could actually do to set themselves up for potential exit down the line?

[19:26] Jake Crowley: Yeah, I don't think that there are too many competing objectives of if you're looking at early balancing kind of the building versus the optimization for eventual acquisition. So I think businesses that create most long-term value usually aren't chasing exits. They're kind of obsessed with solving the customer problems very, very well. And that's what we were just talking about. The companies that are looking at, well, if I just build something kind of basic and modular, and then we take those modular pieces and we try to bolt them into customer systems because if we hit a certain ARR mark, then we hit an exit... you can always spot them. You look across all markets and across all customer bases and you can pinpoint them right away. And it feels like on the buying side, there are a lot of companies that will try to pull the wool over and think that they're going to get by just because they have a few customers that entertain this idea because of that trust factor that they were given. We all see right through it. So I think about companies like Costco. For probably decades, they made decisions that prioritized customer trust over short-term profits that they were likely stepping right beyond because they had a longer vision. So as a result, they created value that will go on for the next hundred years. So founders that focus exclusively on that exit, they're making decisions that look good within a quarter or two quarters, but they're weakening their longevity for the business. So I would say don't focus on the short term, always have that longer-term vision.

[21:11] Andy Karuza: Even if you're willing to give up a little bit in the near term, too, right? In terms of maybe near-term profitability, you might be going for a land grab strategy, which you can see a lot of these AI companies actually are. There's a lot of discussion around that, but it's really a race to get as many users onto the platform, onto your AI platform as possible. The dollars will make sense later, I guess. And to your point about Costco, the famous $1.50 hot dogs they never changed the price on, which, you know, even given today's inflationary environment, is pretty miraculous.

[21:43] Jordi Pujol: A dollar pizza changed. Back in your backyard, they had to start doing $2 hot dogs. Oh shoot!

[21:50] Andy Karuza: Yeah, I know it's... Yeah, Seattle's one of the more expensive markets, as you know New York is as well too.

[22:01] Jordi Pujol: I was talking to this writer and he was telling me that even before writing a book, he essentially does a ton of outlining, right? So he'll write the first chapter, he's focused on how does a story start. But he'll write many stories about the characters, right? So he'll have a story about a particular character, he doesn't know exactly in which chapter it's going to go, but he has it in there, he's developing the scenery, like he's developing all the elements that eventually might come in handy and he might have to change them a little bit. But you know, it's really important how it starts, it's really important that you have the elements, and then it's really important of maybe how it ends, and then he has like, I think he does like five alternate endings or something like that. That's the same kind of in a company, right? I feel like it's really easy to get caught up of, "Okay, I'm just going to start doing a bunch of purchases and I'm just going to do it on my personal card, right?" But that's kind of going to come bite you in the ass later on. And so you might as well just take a moment, right? I don't know how long it takes, but maybe like two weeks to get like the right credit card, right? Think about who you're going to bank with. If you're going to have to take payments, what's going to be your payment processor? Try it out a little bit, right, with a few customers. And then everybody wants to build a gigantic company for day one, but you don't have to. You can build this like really, really tiny company for a very, very niche sector, and all you're selling is one feature, right? Like you don't need to sell the whole product yet. You need to try that feature. Maybe nobody even likes it, right? Or maybe they kind of like it, but there's something better and you realize that like, "Oh, somebody actually does it better, it's really like copyable, like you can copy it, it's very easy to copy, so you don't want to pursue that as like your main feature perhaps," right? And so all that early testing, I think people sometimes forget, right? So they'll build for a really long time and they'll spend six months, three to six months building a product and they try it out into the market and it turns out nobody likes it. Go faster, right? Like build it for a month, do an MVP, have your friends try it, other people, right? Do little tests of how it works. If it's a website, put it out there and see how people react. You actually get visitors. And in those mini tests, like, it will tell you kind of towards which ending you're moving, right? And you can pivot and you'll have to change it, but if you thought about the elements, right? "Okay, eventually I will need to hire these types of people. Eventually I will need a specialist engineer in AWS and this because I'm going to go cloud that direction." Start thinking about those elements before you even start. Then focus a lot on that beginning. And you might have to try three, four different versions of that beginning and then build a giant company, right? But if you kind of start with the mentality of, "I have to build a giant company now," I think one, it's very difficult. And two, you may find that you invested a lot of time and money into something that again, the market doesn't necessarily like or doesn't like in that way.

[24:54] Andy Karuza: Yeah, it's a great point. Yeah, a lot of times too, I like to start from like the end, which I think they call vision, and kind of work backwards from there. Like, you know, what does success look like to us? What is the big vision or problem that we're trying to solve? And then you can kind of fill in the details from there. Uh, same way I kind of read books. Like, I love Blinkist because it gives you like 15 minutes, like just "here's the key takeaways from the book," and then from there it's like, all the, you know, fill in details from there and that completes the whole book, which will take you a long time to read. But if you want to get to the point, you know, you could start with that framework there and kind of, you know, same with business too, kind of build around that, and then you figure out the details. To your point, you know, what is an MVP? How does this flow actually work? You know, who is our real customer actually? All those details can kind of flow in after that.

[25:44] Jake Crowley: Yeah, it's all about hypotheses and then testing those hypotheses out.

[25:48] Andy Karuza: Yep. And love your customer like your product, I always tell people too, because I meet a lot of founders that just love their product so much and they're trying to make people love it as well. But they're kind of missing the point in that regard where they're trying to force their product on people. And I've seen this happen a lot more with the engineering founders too, because you know, they really loved what they've handcrafted and built as a product and they expect other people to as well. But unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. But if you do love your customer and their needs, then it becomes easier to figure out the features and the things you need to do in the product to actually deliver on that.

[26:24] Jordi Pujol: And I'll just, I'll just say one quick thing. So Steve Jobs was famous for basically saying like, "I'm going to force people to use it the way that I envision it." But I think people mistook that it wasn't that he was like trying to force the product on people, is that he had like a bigger vision of it, right? And he, by the way, he was taking huge risks, and that's why he created the biggest company ever, right? Like when you're being an entrepreneur, is that the type of risk you want to take? Because do you want to be like a one-in-a-billion type chance of making it? Or do you want to be one in a million? Do you want to be one in 10,000, right? You can decide which path you want to take, and it doesn't have to be the Steve Jobs "I'm going to force people to love my product" because 99 million companies failed doing that and then he was the one who won because he had this very, very broad vision and maybe the ability to do it. But again, he's like extremely unique. So just something to keep...

[27:19] Jake Crowley: I think, I think to tie those two together as well on the quantity but also the longer vision. So Andy, you brought up a good point: start with your north star and bring it back so you know you're going to stay tried and true. And then Jordi, when you said, you know, keep it very tight with the customer base, because if you're relying on 10 individuals that you kind of really trust and you love your customer, then they're going to give you great feedback and you're going to be able to make and mold this product for exactly who they are, and then it permeates from there. But if you're starting with a million customers and you're getting pulled in all these directions off of their demands, you're losing sight of that longer vision, and then it's only going to create more friction in that short term.

[27:58] Andy Karuza: Yep, yeah, and I think Steve Jobs did start with that north star too, right? And then he kind of worked backwards from there. Like, how do I get people to where I want them, I need them to be? But understanding people's needs today, what their expectations are, human behavior as well, and then kind of accounted for those in terms of like design and bringing it all, tying it all together. Which I think he was a real genius at. So I guess what are some of the mistakes founders make? We're talking about all these great things you can do to set your company up for an exit and increasing your valuation. What are some common mistakes you see from companies? And I know financial is obviously one of the big ones, not keeping their books in order. What are your guys' thoughts on that? Go ahead.

[28:43] Jordi Pujol: Um, so for me, it's going in a direction where you don't have an unfair advantage. What I mean by that is... it's not that you can't try something new as an entrepreneur, I mean, I think that's kind of like the whole point, that you're going into something that is unique, that's different, that maybe hasn't even been done before. But when you're trying to get, for example, VC money, I think I used this metaphor somewhere else, but if you want to cook for someone and you tell them, "Hey, I'm going to make like a Michelin star meal. It's going to be amazing, you know, I'm going to prepare it, I'm going to fish my own fish and I'm going to do all these things." And you're like building the story of everything that you're going to do. But then someone asks you like, "Have you made scrambled eggs before?" And you're like, "Not really, like, I've never really cooked, right?" Like, that's going to be a challenge to get money on, right? It's going to be very, very difficult for somebody to trust you with a three-star Michelin meal when you've like never made eggs in the morning. And so when I say unfair advantage, is everybody has unique experiences and everybody knows a particular market, and so it's okay to start there, right? So for example, like if you've worked 10 years in telecommunications, you probably know a lot about that industry that most other folks do not. And so when you enter it with a new product or a new technology or something that you're building, you're going to have an unfair advantage of understanding who buys it, why they use it, how companies work, how quick the sales cycles are. You're embedded in that, right? At the same time, if you're just passionate around watches, and you know everything that there is to know about watches, and you love the dials, and you know why they're important, and you understand why people hate quartz and love mechanical watches, and you know, you spend all your time on the forums and you understand the subtleties... you're more likely to build a successful watch company than somebody else, right? It's not like that's the determinant of you being successful, but it's definitely giving you a much higher likelihood, right? And it's all about reducing risk, so it's all about increasing your chances of success. So that's why I say when you have an unfair advantage, right, if you go up to a VC and present like, "Hey, my team, each one of us has 10 years in telecommunications. One guy's from sales, one's an engineer, one's from product, etc." again, people are more likely to give you money, which makes you more likely to succeed, which makes you more likely to build for the right things, and it kind of snowballs from there, right? So find your unfair advantage either through interest or passion or something like that, but more importantly, through experience, I would say.

[31:21] Andy Karuza: Absolutely. And we're at time right now, but I could go a couple more minutes if you guys are open.

[31:27] Jake Crowley: I got to get right to the next one, I apologize, but I'll just add onto that one, that was beautifully said. It's all about speed and dexterity on early and then looking at where that's going to go to. So Jordi's answering for both of those. If you're somebody who needs to move fast because you're wanting to compete in a market that is ever-changing, do it alone. But then continuously get those individuals that are going to be around you to advise you, and then become those syndicated properties or coordinated advisors that run the operations. Because at some point, when you're going to go to that valuation table, when we're valuating you, we're not looking at the one founder because you have one customer and it's very concentrated. You might see that as an advantage; we see it as risk. Because that customer leaves or you're not at the helm anymore, then this could all fall apart. My valuation is based off of that. If you were at very early, you were very quick on what you did, and you were very nimble, but you put the next five individuals around that contain those properties, and you have a customer base that is very big and we can rely that that's not going anywhere, that valuation goes from a 5x to a 10x immediately. So you might have moved fast because you thought you really wanted to make the sale, but you just really killed your value that you're going to sell to us at. Where if you moved fast but then slowed it down and made the operations in place, that's where you're going to get more at the end and exist a little bit further.

[32:50] Andy Karuza: Great. Well, thanks for coming on, both of you today. Would love if you guys could maybe tell people where they can learn more about your companies, and maybe what type of partnerships you guys are looking for, and how can the audience help you?

[33:02] Jordi Pujol: So to close it out, LinkedIn, that's definitely the best place for me. It's my name CFA. You can DM me, you can find my email there, all my information is there.

[33:11] Jake Crowley: Great. Likewise. Jake Crowley on LinkedIn, Crowley Capital. Yeah, any questions you might have or any advice, I'm always available.

[33:20] Andy Karuza: Great. Thanks for coming on today guys. I really appreciate it. Great discussion. I'll catch you next time in Austin, Texas, and I'll see you in LA, Jordi.

[33:29] Jordi Pujol: All right, thanks. Enjoy. Bye.