Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to another NachoTuesday! Today, I have David Antley with LinkTrust. We’d love to hear a bit about what you do over there and get a quick elevator pitch if you can. David Antley: Sure! LinkTrust is the oldest performance marketing platform in existence. I know because I was familiar with the founder even before my time. It’s a comprehensive performance marketing platform that handles everything from lead management to CPA tracking. We track and attribute performance accurately for any publishers, partners, or affiliates you want to include. Host: Wow, that sounds great! How long has LinkTrust been around? A couple of decades? David Antley: Yes, we’ve been around for about 20 years. We’re currently on version 8.0, so we’ve gone through eight different iterations of the platform. This should be one of our most comprehensive versions when it’s fully complete. I’m sure we’ll discuss some AI integrations later on. Host: Absolutely. So, what got you to where you are in your career? How did you start? You mentioned Yahoo earlier, so how did you end up at LinkTrust? David Antley: Well, out of college, I knew I wanted to do something online. Believe it or not, I started at the Houston Chronicle when it wasn’t even online yet. I petitioned them to let me join the launch team for houstonchronicle.com (now known as crown.com). They initially said no, but eventually gave me the opportunity because no one else wanted the job. I helped launch the Chronicle on the Internet, back in 1995. From there, I stayed in the newspaper industry longer than I should have, thinking they would adapt, but they didn’t. I was recruited by Mark Cuban’s company in Dallas to work at Audionet, which later became Broadcast.com. After it went public, Mark asked me to move to the Bay Area to help set up the West Coast office. Within six months, the company was sold to Yahoo, so I ended up there for a while. Later, I moved to Overture, the first pay-per-click search engine, before Google entered the scene. I went back to Yahoo through an acquisition, then moved to run Progression, which owned Lexington Law Firm and CreditRepair.com. We built the original performance tracking platform from scratch. A few years later, I was consulting with the private equity company that acquired LinkTrust. I used LinkTrust for my own agency and was brought on to help with a strategic acquisition and eventually became CEO. Host: That’s a fascinating journey! It totally explains why you’re running the show at LinkTrust. Hopefully, Yahoo doesn’t come knocking to acquire you again! David Antley: [Laughs] That was a joke! Yahoo acquired Broadcast.com when I was there, and later they acquired Overture when I was with them. The joke was that they might come after Progression, but that never happened. They’re probably watching my LinkedIn to see where I’m headed next. Actually, we do a lot of work with Yahoo now, focusing on search and monetization perspectives for our customers. Host: Awesome, good to know. So, can you elaborate on some of the tools available for performance marketers today? AI is obviously a big buzzword right now. What tools should performance marketers be aware of? David Antley: There are so many tools out there, and it’s hard to cover everything in depth. However, if you’re not using AI, you’re at risk of being left behind in the performance marketing space. AI can help you write better content, produce information faster than the competition, and crunch numbers more efficiently. Just be cautious to validate the information you’re putting out because bad data can still be a problem with AI. But if you’re not using AI to optimize and analyze campaign performance, you’ll fall behind. Host: I completely agree. AI is an amazing productivity tool. There’s an ongoing debate about whether it’s a complete replacement or just a productivity tool. In my experience, it’s more of a productivity tool—it can handle 80% of the busy work that people don’t want to do, like crunching numbers or generating copy variations. However, having a human touch to adjust and refine the output is still crucial. David Antley: Yes, you definitely need a human touch to make AI tools as effective as possible. I agree that companies jumping on the AI bandwagon now understand that while AI will evolve, we're still in the early stages. It’s important to strategically integrate AI into your products to truly benefit your customers. Some AI tools are making a significant difference and providing real value, while others are just riding the hype wave. It’s crucial for people to step back and evaluate how AI can best fit into their existing products to enhance customer experience. We’ve used various AI tools, and we’ve seen a wide range of performance. Some tools live up to the promise, while others fall short. Understanding how to use these tools effectively is key. It’s similar to the early days of technology where things can be overhyped. But it’s essential to start learning and adapting now because AI is advancing rapidly. Host: I totally agree. A few years ago, AI tools were often just complex algorithms, but now we’re seeing real artificial intelligence with rapid advancements. The progress in image creation alone over the past year is a testament to how fast capabilities are evolving. David Antley: Exactly! At LinkTrust, we’re applying AI in several ways. For instance, we’re exploring AI for code writing and QA/QC automations. We’re also working on integrating AI into our reporting systems to help publishers and advertisers analyze reports more effectively. As we move forward, we’re focusing on dynamic reporting tools that allow advertisers to customize data views for publishers, who can then access these reports through APIs or our partner portals. Host: That sounds fantastic! Are there any features like a chat interface for querying specific data, such as finding the best-performing ad campaigns or identifying top-performing affiliates? David Antley: We haven’t discussed a chat interface in detail yet, but I agree it would be a great addition. Our CTO has a roadmap for future developments, and a chat interface could certainly enhance how users interact with their reports. It would allow users to quickly find specific information and get detailed insights. Host: That would be a valuable feature! I’m excited to see how that develops. For those entering the performance marketing space, what initial steps would you recommend for SaaS companies to establish a performance marketing strategy? David Antley: It starts with establishing your marketing strategy. Identify your Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) and the personas that make up this profile. Analyze your addressable audience and determine where you can find them. This foundational work is crucial for setting up effective campaigns that reach your audience in a meaningful way. Leveraging tools like LinkTrust can help you track and optimize your campaigns. While we don’t develop your campaigns or ICP, we can assist in reaching and tracking your audience better. For example, if you have strategic partnerships with companies that send referrals to you, LinkTrust can track these referrals and integrate with your CRM. Host: That’s very insightful. Can you explain how LinkTrust interfaces with CRM systems and what benefits this provides? David Antley: Certainly. LinkTrust integrates with your CRM to provide detailed tracking of leads generated through partnerships. Our platform offers a portal for partners to see the results of their marketing efforts, including lead quality and pipeline progression. This allows you to track whether a lead is qualified, if it had a meeting, or if it’s moving through the sales process. By offering visibility into the lead lifecycle, LinkTrust helps ensure that you can effectively measure the impact of your performance marketing campaigns. David Antley: You need to offer more incentivization to drive engagement with that company. This approach also provides the ability to run cross-marketing campaigns. In terms of what you need to do, you must first understand your audience. For anyone in the SaaS space, conducting an analysis to identify your ideal customer profile (ICP) and the personas you're targeting is crucial. This involves determining how to message them effectively and how to track your efforts. Many B2B companies still rely on outdated methods, such as tracking data with spreadsheets and makeshift solutions. LinkTrust helps address this by providing transparency through integration with your CRM and offering tools to reach your audience effectively. Host: That’s a great point. Starting with the basics is essential. The tools and tactics may change, but having the fundamentals right puts you on the right track. Many people just "spray and pray" with their marketing tactics. A well-thought-out, methodical approach, leveraging platforms like yours, can help derive much more value from your efforts. The worst situation is when you have a lot of data but no clear understanding of what's working. Unfortunately, many marketers find themselves in that position, especially in performance marketing. Many B2B companies set up strategic partnerships, asking others to send leads on a referral basis but neglect tracking. This often results in managing leads through spreadsheets and struggling with reporting. David Antley: Exactly. When companies see that the leads they send are progressing through the pipeline, they feel more incentivized by success. If they can log in and see the progress at any stage, it eliminates the need for excessive communication and improves workflow. It also allows for effective communication directly through the platform. You can share videos, information, and new resources that partners can use to promote your company more effectively. This layer of transparency fosters more referrals. Host: Transparency indeed builds trust, which is central to LinkTrust’s mission. What other top performance marketing trends are emerging this year, aside from AI? David Antley: Aside from AI, I think there's a focus on understanding and identifying anonymous inquirers. For B2B marketing, it's crucial to identify or "de-anonymize" those visiting your website. Many B2B decisions are made before a direct contact is made, with some studies suggesting up to 70% of the decision is made before reaching out. Being present in the decision-making journey is essential. Host: That’s a great point. Knowing your audience and addressing their specific needs can greatly enhance marketing efforts. LinkTrust is designed for lead and B2B contexts, but smaller B2B products often behave like B2C ones. For larger ticket items or SaaS products with longer sales cycles, our pipeline feature helps track leads through the entire process. David Antley: Absolutely. B2B affiliate marketing is indeed growing. Unlike B2C, where the focus is often on lower-priced items, B2B typically involves higher-ticket items with longer sales cycles. This growth is driven by the need for transparency and the ability to provide the right tools for performance-based marketing. Unfortunately, many companies still use outdated methods and lack the transparency needed for success. Host: I agree. Transparency is key, especially in tracking leads over extended periods. B2B marketing involves higher-value products, which makes affiliate marketing more attractive. Having clear tracking and reporting tools is crucial for optimizing performance. David Antley: Yes, and as technology evolves, so does the way we market. While AI is currently a game-changer, it's hard to predict what will come next. Innovation cycles are accelerating, and AI will likely enhance the discovery of future trends. Reflecting on my experience with broadcast.com and streaming technology, the gaps between innovations have been shrinking. We went from streaming sports games to discussing video streaming innovations over a 20-year span. Moving forward, marketing and advertising will become increasingly personalized and impactful. Host: That’s a compelling perspective. Adopting AI and learning to utilize these tools effectively is crucial because the landscape is evolving rapidly. The more you embrace and understand these technologies, the better positioned you’ll be to adapt to future trends. (13:56) You have more incentive to drive more and do more with that company. It also gives you the ability to conduct a cross-marketing campaign. So, in terms of what you need to do, you need to understand who your audience is first. I think if anybody's in the SaaS space, they will do that analysis to figure out who their ideal customer is, who the personas are that they are targeting, and how to message to them. But then, how do you track it? That’s a big thing. I still see many B2B companies tracking things on what I call “spreadsheets, duct tape, and bailing wire.” They haven’t found a good way to do it, and that's what LinkTrust does for companies on the B2B side. It provides full transparency, integrating internally with your CRM and with your publishers, and offers the tools they need to reach their audience effectively. (15:00) That’s a great point. You’ve always got to start with the basics. The tools and tactics might change, but if you have your basics right, you're always off on the right foot. Another good point is that a lot of people just spray and pray with their marketing tactics. Having a fully thought-out, methodical approach, leveraging platforms like yours, can really help you get a lot more value out of your efforts. Instead of just working with a bunch of affiliates, spraying links, and getting traffic, the worst thing you could do is look at all these numbers and say, “Well, what’s working?” and then have no idea. Many marketers are in that unfortunate position, especially on the performance marketing side. A lot of B2B companies set up strategic partnerships, saying, “Hey, send us your leads; we’ll pay you on a referral basis or whatever.” But they forget about the tracking issue. (15:55) What ends up happening is that company refers a lead to you. You take it on a spreadsheet, and then you have to track it and report back to them, “Thank you for that lead; we’re making progress.” The company or person on the other side is incentivized by success. If they see the leads they’re sending over to you progressing through a pipeline and they have the ability to log in and see where they are at any point, it relieves the need for you to communicate excessively with them. This increases bandwidth and workflow, but it also lets you communicate right through the platform. You can put up videos, information, or new resources that they can then use to promote your company even better. It provides that layer of transparency, which fuels more referrals at the end of the day. (16:54) I think you really hit the nail on the head there. Transparency creates trust—hence the name LinkTrust. I love that you pointed that out. I just took two words and put them together, but there was a reason for the name. I always think in marketing terms. I love it! (17:29) What are some other top performance marketing trends this year aside from AI? (18:02) Well, aside from AI, it’s hard to predict. AI is such a game-changer that it’s difficult to see beyond it. There are different trends for different audiences, but for B2B specifically, it continues to be about identifying those anonymous inquirers. For instance, there are platforms that help identify or de-anonymize people visiting your website. Many B2B sales decisions are made with around 70% of the decision completed before they even contact you. You need to be in front of that decision journey with the customer. This goes back to why you need to understand your audience and be able to market directly to them. You may have different stakeholders with different needs that you need to uncover and address. (19:16) Utilizing these tools to understand who’s looking at you and how to de-anonymize these visitors can give you direction for launching direct campaigns to individuals within those companies. This allows you to begin conversations early and generate leads. (19:47) It’s a great point. If you don’t know who they are, you don’t know how to help them. The more you can understand their needs and target the right people, the easier it is to market to them effectively. Interestingly, LinkTrust is built from a lead and B2C perspective, but many lower-priced B2B products act like B2C anyway. As you move up the funnel to larger ticket items or SaaS companies, you tend to have a longer sales cycle. Our pipeline feature helps track all of that throughout the process. (20:25) Do you see B2B affiliate marketing as a growing trend? B2C was obviously very big, but I feel like B2B has been growing, especially in the affiliate and performance marketing space over the last few years. What are your thoughts? (20:55) Absolutely. I believe performance marketing needs to do a better job of providing tools for B2B. I talk to B2B players every day who still track everything on spreadsheets. Providing transparency and tools to marketers, partners, and affiliates to run on a performance basis is crucial. B2B often involves higher ticket items and longer sales cycles, so transparency is key. Unfortunately, many companies don’t embrace the space or provide the necessary tools and accuracy that performance-based B2B marketing needs to succeed. (21:32) I totally agree. It takes longer to get the sale, so it might be months before a person converts. We even face this issue ourselves. We might need to talk to you about it. People who come in through affiliates might not upgrade right away, but we need to track them for several months to see when they do convert. Transparency with affiliate partners is key, so they can see where that potential buyer is in the process. (22:26) B2B is an amazing opportunity because it involves higher ticket items, unlike referring someone to Amazon for a t-shirt sale where you earn just a few bucks. It could be a software product with a recurring revenue model, which is very attractive from an affiliate standpoint. Most B2B companies are used to placing paid buys for placements. This allows them to flip the script and potentially offer a larger payout on a closed sale. Transparency is crucial to changing this mindset. (23:31) What other time-proven marketing techniques do you think might go away regardless of today’s technology trends? (24:02) I still believe in the principles of reach and frequency, especially in B2B. You need to get reach into the right audience and maintain frequency so that when the decision maker is considering options, you’re in their consideration set. Understanding these principles remains fundamental. The tools today allow for one-on-one communications with the right target audience, whether it's a board member, CFO, or CEO. Tailoring the message to their specific pain points is crucial. These fundamental tactics, once done on a macro level, can now be applied on a micro level. (25:02) It’s always good to reiterate these philosophical points for marketing. The basics work, and while AI and new tools might seem daunting, they are just additional tools at the end of the day. Never stray away from the basics—get those dialed in every time. New productivity tools like AI can enhance these efforts further if you’re in the right place. (25:59) I think AI will enhance the discovery of the next big thing. Innovation cycles are speeding up, and AI will help drive that. (26:31) Absolutely. When I was with broadcast.com and Mark Cuban back in the day, we were pioneers in streaming technology, broadcasting NFL games online and streaming radio stations. Mark sold the company to Yahoo for $6 billion. At that time, we were getting paid by the NFL and Major League Baseball to stream their content. But everyone saw that this model was flawed. Eventually, the model shifted to charging for content to be streamed. The gaps between these shifts are shrinking, and marketing and advertising will become more personal and meaningful. The trend will move in that direction. (28:38) Left in the dust, right? If you look at the positive side of AI, there are many great things it will bring to various industries and fields. For today, though, we'll stick to marketing. Privacy concerns aside, marketing is fundamentally about connecting people with problems to solutions. A great marketer helps people find the solution to their needs. AI will enhance this process, provided it’s used responsibly, by identifying people with problems at the right time, with their permission, and offering the right solution at the optimal time. (29:07) I agree. Even search engines are struggling with this. Part of our business involves working with Google, Yahoo, and Bing, helping to drive traffic to their feeds in meaningful ways. Back when I was at Overture, the highest bid won in search results. Now, algorithms are introduced to prioritize higher-quality customer experiences. With AI returning exact results for queries, search engines will need to adapt their business models to keep up. Effective technology could potentially disrupt the search world in the next few years. (30:09) Search engines, like Google, are great at getting you close to finding what you're looking for but not always getting you the exact answer. Advertisements can place offers in front of people in a sea of options. AI can deliver precise results in a conversational format, which is quite amazing. The next few years will be interesting for search engines and their adaptation. (31:33) We’re also preparing for the future. While the metaverse was a hot topic a couple of years ago, we were the first tracking platform to track within the metaverse. We’ll need to find other spins on AI, but AI will still need tracking behind the scenes to connect the dots.