Good afternoon, everybody, and welcome to another Nacho Tuesday! Today, I have Sean here from HighLevel. Without further ado, we'd love for you to give us a background on your company and what you do over there. Sean: Oh, yeah, great! It's good to be here. So, HighLevel is an all-in-one CRM and marketing automation platform. That's what we do. Interviewer: Nice! You guys have a lot of great tools and features. Would you like to elaborate on some of those? Sean: Sure! You name it, we've got it. You can build websites, create funnels, do two-way conversations via SMS and WhatsApp, build courses, run communities, and handle payments and invoicing. There really isn't much you can't do if you're running a business on our system. The feature list is probably longer than the time we have for this call, but those are some of the highlights. Interviewer: I've heard a lot of people say they love HighLevel because it’s the go-to all-in-one marketing platform. What inspired the name "HighLevel," and how did the company get started? Sean: Well, I had a previous SaaS company where I worked with about a thousand small businesses, and a common theme was that they all wanted more customers. My original co-founder and I thought we might be able to tackle that problem. As for the name, that was all my spouse. She's great with names. I went through a bunch of domains, and she kept throwing out names. I liked "HighLevel," but it was already taken. She really liked it, so I thought, "Well, maybe I can add something in front of it." "Go" was the shortest word I could find that made sense, and that’s how "Go HighLevel" was born. It turned out to be a great choice because it’s proactive — “Go HighLevel” just clicks. Interviewer: It’s a great name! Sometimes the best ideas come about by chance, right? Sean: Absolutely. If you overthink things, you might miss the best solution. The same goes for speaking — I always tell people to jot down their notes but avoid having a script. If you try to memorize everything, you end up fumbling over words, and people can tell. It feels scripted. Interviewer: Agreed. So, you started with an agency and have worked with many others over the years. What tips would you offer to people looking to start an agency and eventually build their own platform to help other agencies? Sean: Turns out, I didn’t start as an agency. My co-founder, Robin, did. That’s actually how we came together. Robin was the agency side of things, and my original co-founder, Verun, and I were the software guys. Robin opened our eyes to the fact that if we really wanted to help small businesses, we needed to help the people who were helping them — the agencies. Fast forward six years, and we have around 100,000 agencies on the platform and about 3 million users. By focusing on agencies, we’ve been able to help them change their business models to become more profitable. Instead of doing bespoke custom work, we encouraged them to create technology-enabled solutions. Our platform allows agencies to white-label and resell to their clients. That’s how we’ve grown as quickly as we have. For those looking to create a platform, just white-label HighLevel — you can do that in about five minutes without having to recreate everything from scratch. Interviewer: What have you learned from working with agencies over the years? You came from a product and software background. What opportunities do you see for agencies today? Sean: Initially, we worked with lead-gen agencies. They were struggling to retain customers because, although they generated leads, they weren’t converting those leads into booked appointments. That’s where we started, and we were able to solve that problem. But we realized that solving just that didn't fundamentally change the business model. What I’ve learned from talking to thousands of agencies is that it’s a very unscalable model. You might be selling a box product, but in reality, you’re doing very custom work. We helped them shift to the "SaaSpreneur" model, where they could sell a technology-enabled service. This way, they could scale without needing to do more custom work. Instead of managing five clients, they could manage 50 or 500 and do about the same amount of work. This change made them more profitable and scalable. Interviewer: That’s definitely one of the biggest challenges for agencies: scaling. They also struggle with sales — always looking for new deals and dealing with clients leaving just as quickly as they come in. Sean: Exactly. I used to run an agency myself, so I know the pain. It’s a great experience, but it’s tough. The technology-enabled approach is the right way to go. Agencies often struggle with repeat business. But if you get clients hooked on your technology and platform, it’s much easier to retain them long term. Interviewer: And it helps with the psychology of pricing, too. I’ve seen many agencies do great work, but at the end of the day, a client might still view $3,000 a month as a big cost, even if you’re delivering them $30,000 in value. Sean: Exactly! When you have a technology-enabled service, you can lower the price point, making it easier for clients to say "yes." You go from charging $3,000 to $300, and your profit margin goes from 20% to 90%. The best part is, your customers stick around, and you keep making money month after month. Plus, the sales process is easier when the price point is lower and more scalable. Interviewer: That’s a game changer. Agencies no longer have to chase clients constantly, and they don’t get stuck in a cycle of trying to deliver a huge sale only to have clients leave after a couple of months. It’s exhausting. Sean: Exactly! It’s like a hamster wheel — sell, sell, sell, and then when you focus on delivery, your pipeline dries up. But with a technology-enabled approach, you can keep customers forever, and the revenue just keeps building. Interviewer: That’s definitely a more sustainable model. So, for agencies thinking about making this shift, what would you recommend as the next step? Sean: Start by embracing technology. White-label HighLevel and start building your technology-enabled services. It’s a faster, more scalable way to grow your business and retain clients. (07:11) Back to your pipeline: It’s gone, and you have to restart it from scratch again. So, having a fundamentally different business model is key. It’s amazing that we offer every software feature you could think of, but what really matters is helping people implement that business model, because that's what will make them sustainable. In our case, we’ve seen people grow massive businesses to the point where they can take real vacations without constantly checking in on a WordPress update or dealing with a website issue in the middle of their time off. It’s a very rewarding experience. 100%—creating processes around it helps your clients become more embedded in working with you. They become dependent, but for the right reasons. By creating an amazing outcome for them, you're the only one doing it, so they won’t want to go anywhere. It’s not about tricking them into anything, it’s about providing value that makes them stay. When you’re running their email automations and programs, they’re not going to want to switch providers because they’re invested in you and the work you’re doing. That’s tough to walk away from, and it’s something a lot of agencies struggle with. So, any agency listening to this, think in terms of being a technology-enabled business. It’s much easier to scale, and you’ll retain clients at a much higher rate. Forget the hamster wheel! As for other industry trends and opportunities, AI is a hot topic, but I find it’s often discussed in vague terms. AI can sound abstract, but one thing we’ve just launched is inbound voice AI. Small businesses get calls every day—missed calls that are often from people who want to give them money, not ask about the weather. With voice AI, if the business misses a call, it can automatically roll over to AI, which can handle critical tasks like booking appointments or providing key information. It doesn’t try to sound human, but it does a fantastic job of replacing a receptionist. The result is businesses can pick up tons of sales they would have missed otherwise. Plus, it’s a great product to offer clients because it doesn’t require much setup, and you don’t even need them to log in. You can just tag it onto their existing business phone number, and they’ll immediately see value. That opens the door for future sales. Yes, that’s the beauty of offering these a la carte features. Once companies are more embedded with you, and they’ve seen the value of the technology you provide, you can add more custom offerings or premium services. Even if they leave, you have your base revenue coming in every month. That’s exactly how I’ve always pitched it: You get that $300/month recurring fee, and then you can always add or subtract services as needed. If you come in with the expectation that you’ll be offering long-term value, it’s much easier to build a solid, ongoing relationship. If you sell a big service that’s limited to three months, you’re just setting yourself up to lose them after the contract ends. It’s like you’re already predicting your own failure. But with technology-enabled services, you’re providing ongoing value that keeps them coming back. There’s a big difference between turning a project on and off versus working with a vendor. Once you fire a vendor, it’s difficult for them to come back, even if the client realizes later they made a mistake. But if it’s a service like ads, where you can revisit it down the road, it keeps the relationship going even when you’re not directly working on a project. That's how you keep things moving forward with your clients, without having to constantly worry about the big sales. As for AI, it's definitely useful for productivity hacks. We're in a 24/7 business world now, and being able to pick up the phone—or at least have a robo-call respond—can be a game-changer. Even if it’s AI, people still appreciate getting an immediate response. Absolutely, and you’re missing opportunities if you’re not responding to people quickly. As we know, time kills deals. This was actually the main challenge when we first started the company. Many agencies would generate leads, but the businesses they worked with didn’t respond quickly enough, and the leads would die. Then, the agencies would lose clients because of it. The reality is, businesses don’t need more leads, they need a better follow-up system. Automating that process can make a huge difference. You don’t need endless human capital to answer every call. Instead, you can free up your team to focus on more sophisticated tasks that actually require expertise to close a deal. Exactly. Provide people with the answers they need right away—the high-level details—and you can guide them down the funnel much more easily. Once you’ve hooked their attention and answered their simple questions, they’re more likely to want to learn more and book a call. Finally, a sales technique that’s been incredibly effective is focusing on outcomes. The biggest mistake I see people make is getting too caught up in the tools or features. Customers often say, “I have that feature with another product.” But you’re not selling features; you’re selling an outcome. That’s how you need to position yourself—whether you’re competing against a tool or another agency. If you focus on delivering a tangible result, and if you price it effectively, you’ll always win. If you’re competing against a tool, just focus on the outcome you deliver, not the tool itself. If you’re competing against an agency, your price point will crush them. Agencies will often charge $3,000/month, but you can offer the same service for $300/month and win every time. By using a software-enabled service that focuses on outcomes, you can beat both types of competitors. (14:53) Honestly, it's about understanding what your client is really looking for. If you look at some of the most successful software companies, they focus on outcome-based sales. The key takeaway is: What does your client want to achieve? It's never about spending a lot of money, learning something new, or taking a lot of time. What they want are more five-star reviews, a higher rank on Google, more leads—whatever their specific goals are. Your job is to focus on their desired outcomes, and then work backward to show how you can accomplish those for them. Don’t get bogged down in comparing tools. The reality is, most clients don't even know enough about the tools to have that kind of debate. So, trying to sell them on tools is a losing battle. Focus on delivering the outcomes they care about. If clients ask a lot about the tools, you can briefly mention them but steer the conversation back to the results you'll deliver, like more five-star reviews, or whatever their specific goals are. (15:17) We have a similar approach. We use AI-powered software to recommend solutions for our clients. A client asked us how it works yesterday, and instead of getting into technical details, I focused on the outcome. I told them how our system will help their product get in front of ideal customers—those who use similar software—so they’ll have a higher chance of conversion. I could share all the data points we track, but honestly, it's probably not worth their time. (16:02) At the end of the day, all that matters is: Can you deliver what you promise, and is it something the client needs? If the answer is yes, and the price is right, then you're done. It’s that simple. (16:25) That’s such a great takeaway, especially for tech companies. Often, we get excited about our features, but it’s important to remember: You should love your customers and like your product. Your product is just the tool you use to solve your customer’s problems. The customer is focused on outcomes, and if technology happens to be the solution, then that’s fine—but don’t get caught up in selling features. Sell the outcome you can provide. (17:12) We do find ourselves in a tricky situation because we talk features with our customers, who are the practitioners. But we always remind them: "Please don’t take this conversation beyond this room, because your customers don’t care about the details." They care about the results, not the tools. (17:36) Looking ahead, marketing trends are increasingly about doing more with less. How do you expand to more channels? How do you automate not just your business but your clients' businesses too? The broader trend I see is a shift away from just offering services like SEO, and toward becoming more holistic business advisors. For example, a plumber doesn’t just need help with marketing; they need advice on technology and operations. It's not just about telling them how to fix a toilet—it’s about the phone system, lead follow-ups, CRMs, and all the backend systems that help run their business. When you can offer this whole system of record, from capturing leads to nurturing them and closing the deal, you're positioned to recommend the entire tech stack. This adds more value to your clients, increases your revenue, and creates a scalable business model for you. (18:56) This shift toward being a more tech-enabled business is becoming an expectation. Agencies that don’t adapt risk falling behind. The days of relying on month-to-month contracts for small, basic services are fading. Clients want agencies that can provide more comprehensive, tech-enabled solutions that help them do more with less—and do it faster. Business is 24/7 now, and clients want to be sure that their agency can keep up. (19:44) Clients are increasingly looking for agencies that can integrate technology into their services. If you're not offering tech-enabled solutions, you risk losing out on long-term relationships and higher investment from clients. As business expectations evolve, agencies need to stay ahead of the curve. (20:09) Clients are seeking agencies with these types of solutions—solutions that go beyond what they’ve traditionally bought from agencies. (20:35) Failure comes with any profession. One time we launched Service Pro Max, a full SaaS platform for managing field services businesses. We went to clients with it, only to hear, "That's great, but we already have a product with 10 times more features." That was a huge blow. But those conversations helped us understand what customers actually wanted: more customers. While we spent six months building the product, it took about five minutes for it to fail. It was a grim lesson, but one that ultimately led to better understanding our customers’ true needs. (21:01) That was definitely a moment to remember, and we learned a lot from that failure. It teaches you so much. Now, looking back, I can understand the most basic things. When you have that practical experience as an entrepreneur, you realize that people want solutions, not features. You learn that the hard way. When you build your first business or product, you tend to focus so much on the features and what you can build. Then, when you present it to customers, they tell you, “This isn’t efficient, and it’s not what I’m looking for.” (21:23) Exactly. It’s a learning process. What’s great is that we’ve adopted what we call the "skateboard model." Everyone always asks for a race car, and our response is, “Okay, here’s a skateboard.” A lot of people are initially surprised, saying, “This isn’t what I asked for,” but we explain, “It has two wheels, it rolls, and it gets you where you need to go.” What we find is that a small percentage of customers realize, "You know what? I didn’t need a race car after all. The skateboard works just fine." For the majority, though, they’ll say, “This doesn’t work for me, but the next step is this,” and so on. The skateboard evolves into a scooter, then a bicycle, and eventually a motorcycle. What’s great about this approach is that with each stage, you’re getting real feedback from real customers, rather than keeping the product in the garage for months, making assumptions, and launching it as a race car that no one actually wanted. By evolving the product step by step, you get more customer adoption. Real-time feedback lets you shape the product into something the market truly needs. (22:31) Exactly. Another mistake many people make is building something they think the customer wants but end up with a bloated product full of features no one asked for. It’s hard to take features away once they’re added, but it’s easier to add them as you go, which is why starting with a basic MVP (Minimum Viable Product) is key. It’s much easier for customers to visualize the core product, and once they see it, they’ll know exactly what to ask for next. This approach also allows you to move much faster. (23:16) You won’t learn these lessons unless you fail a couple of times along the way. (23:42) So, with that in mind, why should people choose HighLevel today? (23:46) Well, we focus on helping people achieve actual outcomes. We want people to build businesses using our platform and to see us as a revenue generator for them—not as a cost center. On top of that, we’re the second-largest marketing automation platform in the world, which is certainly an added bonus. So, if you’re trying to market your business or find a CRM, I don’t think you’ll find a better platform today. That’s probably one of the best reasons to check us out. (24:04) I also think the fact that you guys are so vertically integrated sets you apart. As we mentioned earlier, many people are looking for an all-in-one solution. Even my CEO commented on HighLevel, saying, “What’s this HighLevel product? All our customers seem to love it.” I explained, “It’s one of our new clients we just signed up.” (24:26) When you’ve been using seven different applications and trying to stitch them all together with something like Zapier, having everything in one place—where the tools talk to each other seamlessly—becomes incredibly valuable. It saves you a lot of time and money. (24:49) So, what’s next for you guys? You’ve already accomplished so much in a short time. (24:54) Well, internationalization is a big focus. We just launched in 12 different languages and will continue expanding in that direction. We’re also rolling out new payment methods to cover different countries, along with automating taxes and other processes. Our goal is to meet customers where they are—whether it’s through E-commerce or new AI-driven tools for voice automation, which I’m really excited about. Looking ahead to 2025, we’re likely to dive into product management and other new areas. But, fundamentally, we’ll continue to follow our customers. We build based on their needs and constantly evolve the platform based on their feedback. We’re not trying to figure everything out ourselves; our customers will guide us to the next steps. (25:38) We’re really focused on being customer-centric. We know they’ll lead us in the right direction, and we’ll just keep following their needs. (26:03) Well, I have to say, you guys really know your stuff. What you're doing is clearly working, and I love your business philosophy. The success you’ve had speaks to that. It’s been great working with you, and we’re excited for many more years of partnership. For anyone interested in learning more about HighLevel, I recommend checking out our YouTube channel or visiting our website. Our website has been simple and effective with one page for a long time, and it’ll probably stay that way. We also have a great community where experts share valuable advice for free—advice they normally charge for. You can find it all on our YouTube channel. Just search for HighLevel, and you won’t miss us. (26:25) Excellent. Well, it’s been great working with you guys. You can also check them out in our Marketplace, where we feature the best brands and tech tools for agencies. Sean, it’s been great having you on today, and we look forward to working with you again. (26:35) Likewise! Take care.